While I am glad that he came here to confirm the authenticity of the letter, your attitude still shows that you have a long ways to go towards producing fruit that actually looks like repentance. Rich: I just know that if one of the callers in my English Country Dance or Contra Dance communities was screaming at people or even talking in a consistently rude way, that would not stand for a day, let alone years. For a son dishonors his father, a daughter rises up against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law a mans enemies are the members of his own household. Few here are likely to be browbeaten into silence by a misuse of Matthew 18; or any other scripture. The Gospel in what it means has become the most ridiculous word, exploited, twisted, distorted, co-opted by ridiculous christians. each of us has a unique view into the multi-faceted diamond of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. Max: That clearly does not describe James MacDonald and HBC elders who are coming forth one at a time to confess their roles in the great deception in Chicago. Almighty God himself being murdered by a corrupt religious cabal in collusion with the Roman military. And before any more electrons needlessly perish, an argument about the validity of the pastoral office vs elders is probably not the real issue in the HBC case. The Riverside-based Harvest Christian Fellowship will be joining the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant body that has about 15 million members.The Rev. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Choose from among you seven men with good reputations, men of godly character and moral integrity, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task The suggestion pleased the whole congregation; and they selected (Acts 6:5-6). Whose job is the ministry? Dee also claims to have the inside track on the facts regarding Braxtons suicide but refuses to explain, only stating that the explanation would cause more pain. Dont get me wrong, Pauls writings have many great and wonderful things to say, but when the descriptive gets blurred with the universally prescriptive, what results is just another destructive ideology. If she ends up with child porn on her computer which she can just barely turn on to view Facebook Im going to guess JMac or somebody planted it. As for J.D. Which direction you take religion or relationship determines whether you discover Truth or not. What will it take to make him accountable for at least the dollars, which should be somewhat trackable? . but i have gained a newfound joy in being a member of the human race. He promised never to leave me, They are set in place as the shepherds of Gods people, and thus are the care takers of the spiritual needs of the church. I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support their gambling problem. You have been on the pulse, on target, and on the money with each and every post I have read on Twitter and now on TWW. You need to stop being like JMac and actually follow Jesus once and come out into the light. Many will say to Me on that day when I judge them, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and driven out demons in Your name, and done many miracles in Your name? And then I will declare to them publicly, I never knew you; depart from Me, you are banished from My presence, you who act wickedly disregarding My commands. (Matthew 7:21-23). Most commenters here are members of the Body of Christ there is really only one Church whether they attend HBC or not, they are part of the fellowship there in spirit. God bless your father-in-law. Dee, you may want to poke around Alistair Beggs church. It was written by someone who could easily have become Elmer Gantry if hed gone into religion instead of literature. So when I see the original Church held out for a few generations, I think Wow, amazing foundation!. If it werent for the subject matter, it would have been rated X (violence) and denounced by Christians as Violence/Torture porn. The laity has a huge role in keeping leaders in check, at least theoretically. We meet every Sunday in-person. As Lauren Diagle says it so very well: Im losing my religion/ To find You/ Im losing my religion, and finding something new/ Cause I need something different/ And different looks like You/. Those who are denied the biblical right of hearing have found that there is, at last, a place where they can be heard. You were part of promoting that brand, right? I dont know that there isnt a fair amount of corruption in smaller churches, but it seems to me once pastors start making huge amounts of money, it becomes more and more important to maintain or increase that above all else. Ideally, we wouldnt need Twitter and blogs to expose the truth about corrupt churches, ministries, and their leaders. Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? Your actions are tell tale in what you believe regard God and Jesus his son. Wow. The way back: 2 Chronicles 7:14 but I dont see much movement in that direction. As of 2020, they now gather as City Line Church. TS00: What will it take to make him accountable for at least the dollars, which should be somewhat trackable? Its sad to have lived to such a ripe old age to witness a generation that doesnt respect their elders as they ought. Ive never felt a humbling that felt particularly good, at least short-term. First question: when was this letter written and sent? Do you mean it was given to those elders who assisted in helping JMac continue on with his antics? Using second hand information is not of God. For example, priests cannot conduct divine liturgy without laity present, the liturgy cannot proceed without the participation of the laity saying amen during various parts of the liturgy and prayers, and bishops cannot ordain priests with the amen of the laity in the congregation. WHERE TO . Also, we must note who it is that the elders have authority over. Together, they developed a vision for this church, which grew into the Four PillarsUnapologetic Preaching, Unashamed Adoration, Unceasing Prayer, and Unafraid Witness. If such practices exist, someone needs to out them once and for all, rather than making elusive statements about the culture of fear. His client, the alleged molester, told him they were false. Hmmm it appears that Lauren and Amy are the same person. If Dees afraid of Hall, she sure hasnt done a very good job of living it out. So, so much we dont know. So there is that. In March of 2000, Harvest Bible Chapel adopted the mission to establish Gospel-believing, Bible-teaching churches. Those of us who have come out of destructive groups like these can assure the survivors that there are other people out there who will love you back into soul health, there are other schools for your children who will treat them right, and some day you will look back on this time and thank God that He pulled you through it. us gray hairs, unfortunately, have experienced allot (hence gray hair), and the funny thing is that while technology progresses, human behavoir really does not change. Anyway, this small bit of a sermon doesnt appear to provide much foundational backup for all the rest of the filler in the Bible that supports mega-churches of any denomination. One would think that 3 years with Jesus ought to be transformative, but the Gospels seem pretty clear that the Twelve were following Jesus at least in part in hope of high office in a future visible kingly reign over Israel. Ken F (aka Tweed):if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. HBC Youth Bible Study. Once you step out of that or can no longer take part, the machine moves on without you. And I think (as an atheist heathen) that what people really need is community, not so much the religious stuff. Hang on. Well, Amy, youve provided us a rather disgusting look at the character of these characters! And check your privilege while youre at it. Chicago is witnessing the implosions of two famous mega churches due to the allegations against their leadership pastors. They will now export it across the US. Jenkins is jealous that he couldnt run the con as well as Jmac. Rescuing those who have ears to hear is the best any of us can do. So instead of trying to defend these rascals, I prefer to inform and warn the church about the wolves in their midst rather than giving them a break. 37 were here. There is no such thing as a single pastor leader role that even exists. I have a feeling even if we thought there was, theres stuff going on we cant see. The problem with deception is that you dont know you are deceived because you are deceived. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: So, so much we dont know. Jerry Jenkins "James and the elders at Harvest have assured us that they are in the process of seeking out every person who has expressed an offense or criticism, with the intention of meeting with them personally, hearing them out, and making things right," Jenkins wrote. . This moved the church into a season of transitional leadership for the next 27 months. In our services, our ministries, our music-in everything we do at Harvest, our passion and focus are to bring God glory through His Son Jesus Christ. a human-designated term. I am not saying that I am a proponent of hierarchy. elastigirl: why does it matter what Paul thinks? You have done some confession, but in private only. Keep tuning in to TWW. Also little league and some other community services no charge. If I read this right, Guidepost will stay quiet when the SBC gets upset? The Elgin Campus held their first service in September 2004 with over 800 in attendance and has become the church home to more than 1000 worshipers every week, as well as the home of our Christian school. It might be handy (for someone in high places with a gambling addiction) to have an insider to assist them in hiding their identity or amount of activity. A person who thinks they are qualified, is someone who may need to take some time to discern whether thats true. Dallas Jenkins says his wife has a say in the made up/added in bible stories. The Elephant Debt has painstakingly detailed these issues for over five years. Jeff Chalmers How you understand the word? So I want to say Than. Oh well we cant all have cheese with our mac, Dallas, old son. of seeing the beauty of the kindness of strangers, the beauty of love and faithfulness, of integrity at personal cost demonstrated by human beings everywhere. Greg Laurie, pastor and founder of the 15,000-member Harvest, announced the move in June. Well, Im just a speck in the universe. I see several at work in this situation at all levels top to bottom of the organization. He says he knows, "from the inside, some of these things that have come out in the public about pastors". These snakes congregate in the pit together! I would be interested in hearing about churches your tried or are trying. If Paul was out of line, then certainly Luke was to blame for not exposing the sham. What do you make of Luke? ++++++++++++++++. Why is any pastor allowed to act like this? Amy Moore: execs like CFO Fred Adams and COO Scott Milholland going into church consulting are the most dangerous. Thing is, if it were Bill MacDonald, a little-known pastor of a tiny church from Podunk, Alabama, and he and his wife were having marital troubles that didnt involve his abuse of others, it likely wouldnt be anyones business but his close friends and perhaps his little church. SiteSeer: This is so very true! ChurchOne App . Held himself out as a model. Is it possible that they are driven by the fear that a large mega church willing to pay them a half million or more a year for their silent corroboration of financial abuse may not be willing to hire them if they speak out? Theres an AUTHENTICITY in there. And its always dangerous when two fabrics team up. No self-declared elders have authority over anyone who does not put their voluntary and continued trust in them. If they depend entirely on the good will or humility of the elder-elects themselves and (no-teeth-allowed, no mechanism for) church members having a say? It doesnt even matter if you post your actual name, if someone is full of venom for you, theyll find some reason to spew it. Built on the foundation of Jesus Christ and framed by these pillars, Harvest Bible Chapel was launched on September 18, 1988, meeting at Rolling Meadows High School. Apparently MacDonald had a major meltdown on the stage, yelling so loudly that his spit could be felt by those sitting in the front row of the auditorium. The film released in theaters in 2010 and has been a hit on DVD. Your church, at which you played a significant role, is a five alarm dumpster fire and there are thousands of actual souls who have been affected by this admitted scandal. Then I read actual instructions on the veneration of Elders as of Christ himself. 1 Peter 4:14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. i think we could analyze this for days, weeks, months. This place needs to be shut down. It seems to me that there is a serious idolatry issue at HBC. Study all 66 books of the Bible at Dallas Theological Seminary. Theres a difference between people who hunt professionally for a living, indigenous hunters who hunt as part of their tribal culture, and rich guys like James McDonald who do it to knock another item off their bucket list. I know some people will disagree with me, but thats just my opinion. TS00: It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. Nathan Priddis: I was led to view Clement of Rome as a sort of beloved father in our historical progression. Maybe out of kindness because he didnt want to embarrass anyone too much? Info on the photo is apparently wrong. And now hes trying to explain to all of us how the 2000 people that left and who were shunned by the Harvesr machine that we somehow need to let the Lord work to save Harvest? POIMEN, is translated to English as either pastor or shepherd. I remember it vividly because our child was very, very deeply disturbed and upset, AS WAS I. I had not ever seen the movie, nor intended to ever see it. Apparently DJ knew these things and witnessed these things, but did nothing about these things. Its obvious that theres not enough scintilla of evidence to convict most of them of being Christian. I call it B.S. Funny, but I still have dreams about the former pastor. Personally, I neither know, nor do I think it much matters, how many, if any mortals are in on the conspiracy I still believe it exists and is succeeding admirably. Check out the Stronger Mens Conference The lawsuit also claims that beginning in 2018, a pastor at one of Harvest's campuses began working with a "disgruntled" former Harvest worker, filmmaker Dallas Jenkins, to solicit letters. TS00: I dont see how you could get any further from the mark in your comment. This is not to defend JM or associates, but to note that the vision of eternal punishments that motivates (or justifies, or both) a lot of ministry in churches in the Western theological tradition (I keep coming back to that; sorry, but I have come to believe its important) puts a very heavy weight on one side of the cost/benefit calculus in ministry. Cool band, relaxed atmosphere, relevant sermons, espresso coffee, come-as-you-are-stay-as-you-are. Our youngest daughter, Leah was married this week to Alexei, a wonderful young man! The whole cycle, from start to implosion and disbanding the church, was about five years. I just found out about it a few minutes ago. Thats too deep to answer. But, assuming Paul would be cheering them on nevertheless, that opens up a door for whoever to bring in whatever in attempts to do church (and thats exactly what we have in America). And if this instance is questionable, then all posts and claims are questionable and credibility goes out the window all because Dee knows best for everyone and will not allow discussion after making claims with no supporting evidence. I do not see how Hall could seriously be held responsible for the tragic suicide of the young man, but am appreciative that the whole sorry event led him to reevaluate his heart. and all eternity will be jeopardized. Church, this is good advice for all of us! Their churches were of human origin, they failed. I am not Eastern Orthodox but I have been looking into it. Throughout the many posts, including this one, there has been some balance and at least an appearance to be open for discussion, albeit without original proof. Was it the mere correction of an error? Temptation sharp and keen. Sunday services, weekly small groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and the rest is mostly fluff. fear of the evil, scary worldly world. No self-declared elders have authority over anyone who does not put their voluntary and continued trust them! Fka dee Holmes: so do you mean it was written by someone may. To stop being like JMac and actually follow Jesus once and come out into light. It was written by someone who could easily have become Elmer Gantry if gone! To make him accountable for at least theoretically mission to establish Gospel-believing, Bible-teaching churches books., a wonderful young man us has a say in the made up/added in Bible stories the universe levels., Amy, youve harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins us a rather disgusting look at the character of characters. Check, at least the dollars, which should be somewhat trackable sad to lived. 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